Podcast

Interview Date | April 2, 2020

JILL: Welcome to the DisTopia podcast, where we look at disability from the inside out. [peaceful music fades in] My name is Jill Vyn, and I’m the cohost of this podcast with my friend and colleague, Chris Smit. 

What you are listening to now is the first of two interrelated components of our My Dearest Friends project, both of which have been generously underwritten by the Ford Foundation. The My Dearest Friends podcast, which is produced by DisTopia, is a series of recorded conversations with disabled people about their individual experiences with the COVID-19 pandemic, and the personal, cultural, and political alterations it has triggered. These informal conversations give our guests the opportunity to share personal experiences of sheltering in place and to engage in conversations around deeper questions raised about the value of disabled people, the core values of the disability culture, as well as our hopes, fears, and strategies for living an authentic and pride-filled disabled life.

The second component of the My Dearest Friends project is created in partnership with disabled artist Oaklee Thiele, who is creating black and white illustrations that represent our collective response to our new and uncertain realities as a disabled community. Designed as an open invitation to the disabled community around the world, we invite all of you to participate. More information can be found on Instagram @MyDearestFriendsProject, Facebook, and on our website, DisArtNow.org.

As is true for many of you, our desire for this project is to share our experiences as a disabled community, to disrupt ableist beliefs, to celebrate a culture whose lived experience of disability necessitates flexibility and creativity, and to validate disabled voices and perspectives in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic.

[peaceful music slowly fades into mellow electronic music break]

MARIN: Well, I’m Marin Hann, and I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan, like right between the Kentwood border. By day, I serve in a ministry basis as a therapist for clients with trauma, and I serve at my church in a lot of different capacities. One of them mainly being working with our special needs department, doing preaching and teaching there with folks from all different walks of life. So, I really love both of those experiences. And otherwise, I spend way too much time on YouTube.

CHRIS: Do you know if you have the coronavirus?

MARIN: I don’t have the coronavirus. Over this past weekend, I had flu-like symptoms where I was really, really achy. I had a low-grade fever. I didn’t really know what was going on, and it kind of scared me, obviously. It started on Thursday, and then over the weekend it was pretty bad. And I did do the coronavirus screening that they’re having you do on the phone twice. Both times were not very helpful. But I ended up getting better, so I assume that I don’t have the coronavirus because it was such short-lived, and it didn’t click all of the symptoms. Although they did tell me to presume I had it and then quarantine myself away from everyone. Which was an interesting conversation considering I have a disability, I use power wheelchair, and I can’t quarantine myself from everyone. And they didn’t know what to do with that. So, that was a fun conversation. [laughs]

CHRIS: What was their response?

MARIN: At first, I don’t think they really understood what I was saying. And then, I clarified it a number of times going like, well, first of all, I live with my mom. Second of all, she is an essential worker ’cause she works at the grocery store. And I also have care assistants that come in because my mom can’t physically do all of my care anymore, just her age and having arthritis and things like that. Then it was, well, don’t call your care companies yet, because we don’t know for sure, and you haven’t had your official phone screening. And I was like, well, I kinda need to call my care companies to let them know so that they, is it like an agency thing they decide? And they were just like, we don’t know. And I’m like, so do I not ever get care again? Or [laughs] do they not come while I’m sick? Like, what happens? And they were like, uh just don’t call them yet.

So, then it was very strange. I waited for like five hours where they told me not to tell anybody that I might be sick. And then I finally did get a screening. And then they were like, well, call your agencies and let them know. And then it was just kind of like a conversation between me and the agencies about if they thought waiting a shift to see if my fever went down or all that different stuff. So, it eventually worked out, but with not any help from the screening or the staff that was working with that.

JILL: Wow. That’s really interesting and enlightening at the same time. And two questions come to mind is, one, how did the care agencies respond? And how was this different than other experiences you’ve had when you’ve needed medical feedback or care?

MARIN: Yeah. When I called the agencies, first they asked, “Did you get a test?” And I’m like, well, you can’t get a test in Michigan unless you already need to be in the hospital. They not gonna give you one. And I don’t meet any of the requirements to get a test. So, it was just presumed. And they were like, “Well, do you feel like you have it?” And I’m like, “Well, since nobody’s ever had it, [chuckling] I can’t really answer that question for you. I can tell you my fever’s gone. I can tell you I’m in a lot of pain.” One of the agencies said that they wanted just a overnight break from one of the shifts just to make sure that the fever stayed gone. And then one of the other ones was just like, “Well, we’ll make sure that they are allowed to bring a mask and they have extra hand sanitizer, and we’ll just have them keep coming.” My mom did cover a few shifts because that particular care assistant has a special needs daughter who has significant health concerns that if she were to get sick with anything, it would be a problem. So, I actually called her personally and told her not to come.

No one really had a answer. No one was really prepared about what they were supposed to do. Any other time that I’m sick, my care assistants still have to come. But this time they don’t. So, at no other point do I ever call my agency letting them know I’m sick. The assistants just find out when they show up, and I don’t have to worry about calling and letting anybody know. But this time I did.

JILL: So, what do the care agencies have for a solution if you couldn’t have care come in?

MARIN: From what I understand from my caseworker with Medicaid, ’cause I’m on the Medicaid waiver for home care—I don’t know what it is for private pay. I think if you’re private pay, that’s a decision between you and the people you hire—but for Medicaid waiver, if you test positive, you can’t have anybody come in. So, you just don’t have care.

CHRIS: So, can we talk about that fucked up? Let’s just make sure that I heard you right.

MARIN: Yeah.

CHRIS: So, if you get COVID-19, Medicaid will no longer pay for your care.

MARIN: They won’t send anybody. So, agencies are not allowed to send somebody over. You just don’t have care. Or I guess, I don’t know what would happen if you call the hospital and told them you couldn’t take care of yourself and your care was no longer here ’cause you’re positive, if the hospital would allow you to have a bed, even if your symptoms aren’t really hospital worthy. But that’s the only thing that was suggested to me is like, well, you don’t live alone. You have family. But if you did live alone, I guess you could call the hospital.

CHRIS: That’s the assumption, right, that you don’t live alone?

MARIN: Yeah.

CHRIS: That you have a network.

MARIN: And that those people, even if it’s like, oh, well, you have family, right? And I’m like, OK. And then if you don’t have family around, well, your friends can come. And I’m like, yes, during a shelter-in-place order, they’re allowed to just leave the house whenever! It doesn’t work that way in a pandemic, so. Yeah.

JILL: Sounds like it must have been a scare for you.

MARIN: Yeah, it was. I mean, the longer it went on, the more I suspected that I had flu symptoms and not COVID. But when it first started, I was like, well, what am I supposed to do? And then what if my mom gets it? And then she, one, can’t consistently do all the shifts for very long. And then on top of her being sick, she’s not gonna be able to do it. So, what do the both of us do? Because no one can come to our house. So, it was a scary situation. It stressed us both out for a while.

JILL: Yeah, wow.

MARIN: It doesn’t seem like anybody knows what to do ’cause no one’s ever considered it.

CHRIS: Well, and it also means that the system is set up to encourage lying. Because, quite frankly, I would lie through my teeth to make sure that I still could get out of bed.

MARIN: So you still have care. Yeah. Like, “No, I don’t have COVID. I tested negative. It’s something else.” Yeah. Yeah.

JILL: OK, so if I have someone come into my home, I have to think about all the people and all the decisions they’re making, you know, this chain of people. And I’m sure your mom is experiencing that as well in the grocery store and thinking about she has no control over who she’s interacting with or not.

MARIN: She doesn’t. She tried to call. I won’t name where she is, but she tried to call the number she was given for COVID response things to say that she was caring for someone who is sick and then therefore, get the allowed time off without penalty. And they called and said, “Well, if she doesn’t get a test, then we can’t count it.” But they’re not giving people tests unless you’re hospitalized. That was just a really stressful thing because the grocery stores aren’t prepared for it either, to help their workers figure out how to do caregiving. They’re just like, oh, if you test positive, then we’ll help you. But we don’t know what to do if your loved one is sick, and they can’t take care of themselves.

JILL: Right. Because she’s an essential caregiver for you as well.

MARIN: Yeah. She’s essential worker in two different places!

JILL: Yes, she is. Chris, we’ve talked before about the value placed on caregivers.

CHRIS: I think that an unfortunate byproduct of the way caregiving works right now in terms of private versus institutionalized or agency care, that because of the lower minimum wage that a lot of these workers are making, care is no longer an honored position in our society. I would claim that for my whole life, I’m 46, I don’t think it’s ever been the kind of job where somebody, you know, like a 18-year-old, right, getting ready to get out of college or high school. And they say, “You know, I would like to be a caregiver,” right? I mean, it’s not something that we talk about. If there’s no value on that position in our own society, then where the heck are we left as the people who depend on that care, right? Where are we left if people don’t desire that kind of work? You know, it actually reflects on people like you and me, Marin, who use that care as well. So, yeah, it’s tough.

[mellow electronic music break]

JILL: What’s been the impact on your work?

MARIN: I’m a trauma therapist, so a Licensed Professional Counselor who specializes in trauma. And I specialize in all sorts of dissociative disorders which come from trauma. So, working with people with complex PTSD or dissociative identity disorder or otherwise specified dissociative disorders. And I have other clients that also have experienced trauma but may not develop those specific disorders because of it. And so, we’ve moved all of our clients, myself and my colleague have moved all of our clients, to telehealth at this point. So, we video all of our clients right now. A couple of my clients, I’ve moved to meeting with them twice a week just because they may not be connecting the stressor to what’s happening, but their body and their brain, without them consciously being aware, is connecting it. And so, they’re having a lot of flare ups of trauma symptoms, and it’s hard for them to stabilize. So, we have upped for some clients to meeting twice a week instead of once just to get through this next month or so with the quarantine and adding the stress for them and things like that.

CHRIS: Without getting into any specifics, what are you telling them in terms of how to make sense of what’s happening?

MARIN: I think for a lot of people, sometimes it’s clear like, oh, I know that I’m stressed out about this. And then it’s about, OK, so, I can’t just swipe those feelings away and pretend that they’re not happening. I have to be able to just look at them. And I often telling my clients, it’s kind of a psychoanalysis type of thing, but I tell them to kind of move their feelings as if their feeling is its own entity and it’s in the room with them just to get to know it. Like, OK, I will ask it a lot of what questions. Not a lot of why. Why is often a question we ask ourselves that ramps up anxiety because we’re always searching for meaning and searching for answers. And then when we can’t find them, it feels worse. And then we have more questions, and we just can’t get through our day. But if we ask a lot of more what questions of like, what is this feeling trying to tell me, it can be more concrete sometimes. Like, oh, I feel anxious, and what is that trying to tell me? I need to do something to calm myself down, whatever that is. Do I need some kind of sensory input? Do I need to go read something? Do I need to go outside? What is it trying to communicate to me?

And then also that it’s OK to acknowledge like, oh, I’m not really mentally stressed about this. But I think just the emotional toll of seeing it in the news or hearing people talk about it, even though mentally I feel fine right now, my body still has a reaction to it. So, if I’m more fatigued, even though I’m quarantined and not going to work and not really doing anything that usually makes me tired, it makes sense that I’m more fatigued, and I’m more tired. And it makes sense that I’m sleeping in longer during the day. And that’s not a bad thing. It’s just the way my body’s reacting. Well, we need this extra sleep or we need this extra self-care that we didn’t need before because your brain is still processing all the messages. Even if you’re not emotionally feeling very distraught about them, your brain still has them all in there.

JILL: Everything you’re saying is resonating. Chris, you were just saying the other day how tired you were, and just because we’re taking all this on and we’re thinking about it and it’s coming across in the media.

MARIN: Mmhmm.

CHRIS: I think, you know, there’s a lot of other people who know what to do with that stuff. I tend to let it sink in, and that can make it really difficult. My exhaustion these days is more from the anxiety of not knowing what’s next.

MARIN: Yeah, I definitely resonate with that. Now we’re like one day at a time. What’s tomorrow look like? Before it was, oh, I have this trip I’m gonna go, this road trip I’m gonna go do in a couple of weeks. Now, you’re not. [laughs] And oh, this next week at work, we don’t know what’s gonna happen next week at work.

[mellow electronic music break]

JILL: This isn’t a therapy show, but in reality, we are trying to gather strategies. What are the strategies that you are finding with your clients and for yourself that are being the most effective during this uncertain time?

MARIN: We’re all just philosophizing in our heads because this is kind of like, it’s kind of given us a rough and also at times beautiful, but a lot of times rough as well, taste of who we really are as a culture and as a nation, as a world. When we’re in the midst of a crisis, how we really are comes out. And that hasn’t always been pretty. And I think people are trying to come to terms with that. Some people, it was like, I expected this to happen, and some people, it was like, oh, this is shocking to me that this is this bad and that people are acting this way. But I think because we’re stuck in that philosophical way of thinking, sometimes just giving yourself a break from that space. You need to get out of it and do a lot of sensory stimulus.

And I say that as someone who, I think because I’m in a power wheelchair, a lot of my life happens in my head because I can’t be typically as physical with the environment we live in that’s not as accessible for me as I think other people are. So, a lot of my life is like an inner life. And I have to remind myself, you need sensory stimulus. You have been in your head all day, and you are a wreck! [laughs] You need to go do something that has sensory touch to it or craft, because it’s something physical that you can do and manipulate something. Or if the sense of smell, if that really works for you, go get essential oils. Or for me, I really like it when people peel oranges ’cause I love that smell. And it just kind of wakes you up out of your head to be more in touch with your physical space.

And then also, I think just staying connected relationally, because we all feel super, super isolated, that just even if it’s video, if you need to get back to hand-writing letters. That could be something that is sensory simulated for you and also a way to continue to connect people, make it feel more meaningful than talking on the phone or FaceTiming with someone. It’s something that’s physical and sentimental that they can hold onto. And so, I’ve just been really encouraging people to spend that time out of their head and do more sensory-oriented physical things so that they can get that break. Because that’s where we’re all spending our time right now.

CHRIS: Yeah, I can so relate to that. I spend a lot of time in my mind, and I’ve never thought about that, you know? I often do that ’cause that’s where I can control things, right?

MARIN: Same. [chuckles]

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

MARIN: Yes!

CHRIS: Yeah. That’s not something that just disabled people have. Are you resonating with that?

JILL: Well, although I don’t identify as disabled, I do have experience with depression and anxiety. What resonates with me is my body reacting. And I can tell if I’m feeling anxious, and then I shift what I’m doing. So, I really like to be in tune with that physical response. But as someone who does know that spiral, I’ve learned not to spiral or to notice it early and then do something that is healthy. In the last couple of days, I could feel it, but today’s a sunny day. And even if I’m not outside, there’s just something about that energy that you know, there’s a spring coming, and it feels good.

CHRIS: I certainly felt that this morning. I don’t know if you did too, Marin, but seeing the sun and feeling the warmth of it, I feel better than I’ve felt in a week because of that energy, so. But wow, it’s finally sunny out.

MARIN: It’s supposed to get to the 60s tomorrow, and I’m excited for that.

CHRIS: Well, I’ll take that!

MARIN: I know. I wanna go for a walk. I haven’t been outside in I don’t know how long! [laughs]

CHRIS: I know. I’m just excited to wear a t-shirt. I haven’t worn a t-shirt, just a t-shirt in like five months.

MARIN: [laughs] I know. I’m one of those people that like I really don’t like wearing layers, one, because with muscle tone, I can’t move in them. They’re very restrictive. [laughs]

CHRIS: Right. I have the opposite, though. If I’m not bundled up, then I’m cold!

MARIN: But then you feel like the Christmas Story kid.

CHRIS: Yeah, yeah! Right. Right. Right.

[mellow electronic music break]

CHRIS: We are very interested in knowing your responses to what you’ve been reading online, especially reporting about disabled people or the role disabled people play in the pandemic and in sort of the rhetoric of the pandemic.

MARIN: Yeah, I think it’s been a mix, I think. For me, it’s encouraged and open up a lot of conversations with people that I don’t think otherwise would’ve been opened as easily. So, that’s been a positive that I’ve seen in reaction. It’s opened up a lot of conversations, a lot of trending things that’ve happened on social media where people are like, “Oh, I hadn’t thought about that before. That’s a new thought to me.” At the same time, it’s been really painful to watch the reaction in the news and the reaction on social media and the rhetoric that people use to talk about COVID. I mean, I think a very clear one that’s been quite painful is when, in the beginning the news was like, it’s only going to affect elderly and chronically ill people. And when you’re part of the only and that somehow, the fact that it’s only you is comforting to so many other people, is so disheartening. The fact that you’re not me is what you’re getting your encouragement and peace out of. The fact that you don’t live my life is now something that you’re grateful for?

A lot of people are doing really great at social distancing. And then we have those groups of people that really don’t care, and they keep breaking all the social distancing rules because, “This doesn’t apply to me.” But I’ve had people that I’m friends with on Facebook who claim that they are friends of mine or acquaintances or social circle friends of mine that really care. But then they’re mad that they can’t go to the bar. And I’m like, “Hi! Still here!” [laughs] Like, are you paying attention to who you’re addressing these messages to? And now that it’s started to change where oh, it’s not just the elderly and chronically ill that are gonna get hospitalized. Now, young people are hospitalized, too, and people that don’t have any health conditions are being hospitalized. So, now it does apply to you. It’s also still hurtful because, oh, now it matters to you because now you and I are in the same group. And now it’s painful.

And I was telling one of my friends a couple days ago, I was like, I’ve never felt like I had so much in common with the elderly population before. But I feel like we’re both hated groups right now. [chuckles] And I just really resonate with what they’re going through, and the lack of care that’s happening with the elderly population is something that I’m also struggling with and experiencing. And so, just being able to have even those conversations, like with my grandparents and calling them and being like, “This is really hard. And I’m sorry that you’re getting those messages on the news.” Your value has nothing to do with your age or your physical state or anything like that.

JILL: This is the very conversation that started this project. Chris talked about the canaries in the coal mine analogy. Do you think that people were intentionally othering those two groups of people? Or is it just ingrained in our ways of communicating?

CHRIS: I think this is well-rehearsed behavior. So, when people are, whether it’s somebody in the public or somebody writing or whatever, when they are ascertaining the meaning of the COVID virus, I think that they are in survival mode. And in survival mode is when disabled people get screwed the most. When the society is in this mode of trying to move fast, figure stuff out, the people who can’t move fast and the people who don’t figure into the sort of logical understanding of reality, those are the people that get tossed aside. And so, what do you think, Marin?

MARIN: Yeah. No, I definitely agree with that. I think that’s true of just the human condition when we’re in survival mode. Survival mode, I think, in a place of brokenness just become survival of the fittest for everybody. You start thinking, I’m fending for myself and not for my community, which is not the way to combat this virus. It’s the opposite of that.

I’m going to pause this one second. My mom just got in. I’m just asking her to close my door for just a second. [chuckles]

[brief silence]

JILL: Hi, Mom.

CHRIS: Hi, Mom!

JILL: [laughs]

MARIN: Hi, this is Chris and Jill. Hi.

MOM: Hi, Chris and Jill.

MARIN: [laughs]

CHRIS: Hi, how are you?

JILL: Hi!

CHRIS: Welcome home.

MOM: Thank you.

MARIN: [laughs] Welcome home, Mom.

CHRIS and MARIN: [laugh]

MOM: OK.

MARIN: OK.

JILL: You were talking about empathy, and that’s what I resonated with.

MARIN: Empathy is a skill that has to be practiced, and it’s a thoughtful skill. And when we’re in survival mode, we often don’t practice thoughtful things. And I think that applies to everyone. And something earlier today that happened to me that was humbling is that I was reading this article that I posted on Facebook, and it did not dawn on me before that this would be a problem. But this young woman who goes to Eastern Kentucky University, her name’s Ashley Lawrence, and she’s making homemade masks, but she’s making them with a clear fabric space for the mouth for people who are deaf and hard of hearing so that they can still read people’s lips. And also because ASL is facial expression involved. And it just dawned on me like, we’re in survival mode, and I was thinking people need to wear masks, and then didn’t think about the deaf community when I said people need to wear masks! And I’m so grateful that she did. And just as a disabled person myself going like, hey, you have to move to the thoughtful place of thinking, like, OK. So, everything that we’re doing, who are we leaving out in this system? And what word choice are we using? Or how are we making things while we’re making them in haste? Are we making them responsibly and thinking about all the populations while we make them to make sure that everyone can have that communication and care that they need?

JILL: I think that’s a really valuable point. I’m glad you shared it. Not all of us are thinking about all the different ways that people communicate and interact and their experiences. And then people will say, “Well, gosh! It’s just all politically correct stuff!”

MARIN: Well….

JILL: [laughs] You just had a facial expression there. I’ll let you take that one!

MARIN: [laughs] Aw, I just had such a visceral reaction to you saying that! ‘Cause I get that from so many friends and families of just like, “Oh, it’s just political correctness.” And it’s so painful. Because I look at what people call the political correctness movement, and I’m like, you can mock all you want about this movement of political correctness. But whether it’s an agenda that people have that people claim, “This is the first time that people have said, it’s important to be careful how you talk to this person that’s different than you.” And for me, political correctness, whether that person is just doing it to be P.C. or they’re actually doing it out of thoughtfulness and empathy, it still means that I have to hear horrible things less. And when people are like, “Oh, it’s the political correctness. I hate it.” And I’m like, really? ‘Cause that’s the thing that’s made my day a little bit easier.

CHRIS: You know, people who are politically correct, just wait till we start talking about rationing ventilators, right? And you know, political correctness, [chuckles] if we’re not politically correct and then we start doing that stuff and we have to start rationing, once again, I mean, the reality of it is just too stark, you know. So, yeah. So, it helps us have a better day. I totally get that. But it also prepares us for tragedy and for uncertainty, right?

JILL: Well, and it holds people accountable to thinking about more people. There is this weird balance, and being in relationships allows us hopefully to not be afraid to call people out on things.

MARIN: I definitely agree with that. And that being in the relationship with somebody is just how you start having those difficult conversations, hard conversations. And what I was thinking about while you were saying that is that the idea of someone just practicing that or their language being policed in that way of the political correctness idea in our culture, it’s a surface Band-Aid to a very, very deep cultural problem. And I still value the Band-Aid because when you’re bleeding, you still need a Band-Aid. But we need to be in relationships and have those discussions to be able to get to the root of the issue.

[mellow electronic music break]

CHRIS: We’ve been asking people to think about what your hope or fear is about how this thing will change everything and whether that is a hope or is it a fear or is it some blending of the two? I don’t know.

MARIN: I would say it’s probably a blending of the two. I think in the present, the fear is like the predominant or the anxiety was the predominant emotion. And then the hope of what it could be peeks out every now and then. I know from a faith perspective, I’ve been very, very angry at some of the evangelical Christian response to COVID and just the irresponsible ideas of congregating together and just not caring about the community. And thinking like if your faith is strong, God’s bigger than COVID is the same as telling someone to stop their chemo treatments because God’s bigger than cancer. It’s the dumbest thing, but [laughs] I could go on a rant about that. But at the same time, just as an example of the fear and the anger on a large perspective, there’s lots of things that I could think of that I worry about in the future or that I hope for in the future because of this. But as like a sub-version of it, I fear that about the evangelical culture.

But I also find hope in my alma mater and a lot of other Christian institutions that have come out and been like, “This is not how we do life. This is not biblical. This is not how you care for the vulnerable. This is not how you care for the oppressed.” So, out of this crisis, you’re getting these polar opposite, like this could be a dystopia, or this could be an enlightenment! [laughs] We could go either way on here. And so, just recognizing, like, OK, I see that coming in the future where it could be really bad. I see where that pattern could head. I’m looking at it. I recognize you. I’m watching to see what’s gonna happen down the road. And then I also see that this is the path that I wanna walk down. This is the new future and the new hope of like we need to start having these conversations about caring for our community and not being so individualized and self-centered. We need to start having these conversations of how do we use language in journalism? And we need to have these conversations about how do we get healthcare for everybody, which this has opened up a whole thing about that, that I think this is the first time we’ve started having conversations on both sides where people are like, oh, well, now healthcare is a concern.

And so, I think it’s just opening up, no matter where you stand on any theological or political place, now you have to have more conversations. When you’re faced with the crisis, you’re confronted with, we can either continue to be really ugly about this, or we can change this now that it’s been in our face, and we see it and we see some of us respond in an unacceptable way. And we have to call that out and say that that’s unacceptable. So, I’m hoping that with this pandemic, what we do have is more of us coming out and recognizing that behavior and that way that we do culture is not life-giving and not helping people flourish, and that’s unacceptable. And that we change things going forward. But that would be the ultimate hope. That would be like all the happy clouds and rainbows and glass half full. [laughs]

JILL: And unicorns.

MARIN: Yes, I forgot the unicorns. I’m sorry.

JILL: [laughs]

[mellow electronic music plays through the good-byes]

CHRIS: Oh, thanks, Marin, so much for your time. It was great to see you.

MARIN: Good to see you, too.

JILL: Yeah. Thanks, Marin.

CHRIS: Hopefully, at the other side of this whole thing, we’ll be back together, you know? We’ll be together.

JILL: Yeah.

MARIN: Yeah! For sure.

JILL: Thanks for listening. Be well, keep your distance, send us your comments, questions, and your submissions for Oaklee Thiele to hello@DisArtNow.org. Please make sure to follow the My Dearest Friends project on Instagram, Facebook, and DisArtNow.org. And thanks again to the Ford Foundation for their support of this work and to cat enthusiast Cheryl Green for the transcription of this podcast episode.

Music: “Snowy Daze” by Ketsa. (Source: freemusicarchive.org. Licensed under a Attribution-ShareAlike License.)